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Old 10-31-2006, 04:02 PM   #1
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Well firstly i'd like to thank tmyapp for a very nice looking update however i think somethings need discussing about the future and effect the vindication system(character wise) is having on the game

Sure we now have 2 very powerful vindicated characters,but has Tmyapp made them TOO powerful? TOO plentiful in super moves? Where do you see vindicatiated characters leading us to in the future?

For me i'm a little worried that they are being made too powerful for there own good,by themselves they are unstopable killing machines and has with nearly all of Tmyapps work he tries to better and out think his last creations-this however is a problem in some ways because eventually once you've made more powerful characters/updates it then leaves others behind.

Curently we have 3 groups:
DWX Characters
Vindicated characters
Standard characters

even when you take rage into account they are still vast differences, DWX was a collosal power until vindicated came along and you have your standard characters (sent,chun li ken possibly Bison and spidey) trailing behind

Right now we have a massive gap in power between standard and dwx/vindicated characters.DWX and vindicated aren't to far apart but the problem remains with your standard characters.
The obvious answer is to update them but then wouldn't we be giving brith to even more powerful characters as inevitably tmyapp will try and betetr his own work again causing a continual cycle.

I don't claim to know what Tmyapp thinks or does in his planning process and design phases etc but i think (if not done alreadyy) power balance should be taken into consideration between these 3 currently existing groups.

I do enjoy the new characters updates and one thing i can't pick fault with is the new look and effects(these are great and don't harm gameplay) so don't think i'm bitching,but outside of me thinkign there cool there's a bigegr picture to see and thats the impact it's making on the game and shift of balance in powers when these new things are introduced.

Obviously new things need tweakign but still i think we are going to be having a problem in the future because currently the answer to solving the power in balance is to give certain characters more power-which isn't really working because the once revered wolvi and cyclops who were feared for there powers are dwarfed by the vindicated system and so all efforts in terms of power balance havn't made changes for the good of the game.

I've rambled on enoguh but i'd like to know what you think on the matter
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Old 10-31-2006, 04:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

You Actually Have A Point Noobs Are Actually Owning And By Noobs I Mean Norms And Vip.
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Old 10-31-2006, 04:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

I agree with you completly. This vindicated feature is making these charcters too strong. I dont think vindicating more people will solve the problem either. This game will be jus reduced to nothing more than a game of luck unless a balance is created.
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Old 10-31-2006, 05:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

You mean just because ppl are abusing the moves or somewhat your tryin to say to disable the game vindicator and take away the work that tmyapp has put into the game..
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Old 10-31-2006, 05:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Well, if he learns to vindicate without overpowing a single charcter over everyone else, then things might be better.
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Old 10-31-2006, 05:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

i quit this game because of vincated ppl i cant install vinincator plus vips are way to strong
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Old 10-31-2006, 06:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Vindicateded Characters suck. End of story. They should all be deleted and the VG locked away.



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Old 10-31-2006, 09:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

DWX Characters
1) The first DWX character was Wolverine. His moves were improved. An example would bem his BB, and BBX going through projectiles, and two other moves were added. The fatal claw and WX were introduced. There were a few bugs with the fatal claw, and people being annoyed that the wx hits you in the air as well as the ground, but people got over it.

2) Second Vindicated Character was Cyclops. Most of his supers were changed into stronger versions; Giga Optic Blast, Giga Directional, and other moves. He was pretty good, and gained alot of advantages. No problem here even though his attack were really strong.

Vindicated Characters
When vindicated Ryu first came out he worked pretty well. We got the glossy look, the new voices, and beefed up moves for Ryu. There was no complaining really, except for the E. Ryu Tornado kick, saying that it took too much, etc. But this wasn't really a problem..

Vindicated Ryu ll & Akuma: I was a bit..dissapointed in this. First I didn't believe that Ryu should be re-vindicated. He had his chance the last updates..he didn't need another one.

Akuma: His upgrade was nice, some of his moves are buggy right now. One thing I would do with Akuma, is just to beef up his moves, and add about a special or two..like the old vindicated ryu...

Both of them, I feel have uneeded specials..such as the wx style rd, and other specials..

If everyone get vindicated..I hope Tm doesn't put uneeded moves, and specials to the other characters, I feel like with the vindicated glossy affects, you should just beef up the moves, and add like a move and/or another special and it'll be fine.
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Old 10-31-2006, 10:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

TMyApp does what he wants and when he wants... stop wasting your time with this useless bitching, if you don't like it, then leave and NEVER come back! You and your useless bitching will not be missed, lol. *

What? don't look at me, I'm not the one who said it.



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Old 11-01-2006, 01:10 AM   #10
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Well, seriously speaking, SFO must be different from the other SF games we have played before. Introducing the game vindicator is the best move after reported Xsoul Hackings. To improve the game effects and add new moves to the frequently used characters is an additional treat for us.

Sure, the newly Vindicated characters are too powerful against the normal standard characters. Who uses the standard characters these days? VIPs' only characters are too strong for the norms? Well, this is unarguably one of the perks given for appreciation and u can't bitch against the VIPs for this. In the end, i believe this is just the beginning of a new Era in the SFO game.. There will definitely be more updates to get back balance between the characters. This is but a preview of what is to come.

DWX characters being left far behind by the Vindicated characters? I think not. The lvl 2 supers by both Wolverine and cyclops are still respectably powerful. All i want for them now is to be supported by the GV, for improved graphics perhaps. SFO must be unique. Would u rather take away everything updated for us to the old SFO games without the new graphics, powers, etc ?

Change would definitely cause hatred by those who have enjoyed the "good old days". Change is ineviatble and much needed for improvement. What we should do is embrace the improved characters and practice to become good at the new gameplay ourselves..
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Old 11-01-2006, 01:36 AM   #11
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

honestly i just want ken vindicated
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Old 11-01-2006, 04:59 AM   #12
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

I never said anywhere in my post that vindication of characters is a bad idea or should be scraped.

SFO is indeed unique and should stay that way but it can be done in a way so as to benefit both area's.

@Limbei's point:
i know the vindication of characters has rewarded us greatly but when i said "standard characters" i was also including there raged up versions which pale in comparison to vindication.

Not only that but vindicated characters such as ryu and akuma now means norms can't even rage up without turning vindicator off, which if they do then exposes them to cheats and gives them even weaker versions.

The vindication system itself IE stopping cheats etc i have no dispute with,neither do i have a dispute with improved graphics and slightly improved supers but lets just go ahead and count EV Ryu's super moves:

shin hadoken
shin shoruken
super hurricane kick
RD
Air shin hadoken(think it's called tenma)
raging fist-level 2
air to ground super(the fist thing but i forget the name)

7 supers?

of that 3 do damage on par with RD (shin shoruken,RD and raging fist)

Not only that but ryu now has a super to deal with nearly any eventuality

comparing this to ken (raged)

shorappa
RD
flame pillar move(sorry forgot the name)
and the flame hadruken

He's got roughly half the supers and again half of standard moves (no ashura warp,1 kind of hadoken)

Ryu obviously in that comparison has a massive advantage even when it's vindicated rage vs standard rage


My whole point on this is the lack of a power balance making many characters obsolete or drastically under powered and one or 2 of them so powerful there pretty much gods.

There IS a problem with the power balance,i've said it before i do enjoy the new characters and powers but how exactly is the game supposed to remain (generally) fair?

In all games a power balance is often established so as to avoid characters form being TOO powerful or TOO weak,in online gameplay this balance is even more important

some characters do need tweaking and perhaps new moves added-i'm not disputing this,but when you overload and give 7-8 supers for one character whilst some only have half of that it causes problems.Vindicated characters can be remastered,given nice new effects and such without them becoming gods all of a sudden
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Old 11-01-2006, 08:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

if vindicated ken come u can use it with rage please!!!!! lol
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Old 11-01-2006, 08:13 AM   #14
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (_SappY_ @ Nov. 01 2006,09:03)]if vindicated ken come u can use it with rage please!!!!! lol
what do u mean??
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Old 11-01-2006, 04:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (_SappY_ @ Nov. 01 2006,09:03)]if vindicated ken come u can use it with rage please!!!!! lol
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Old 11-01-2006, 04:17 PM   #16
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

I think making updates based on these vindicated character is a very good technique. I think basically getting these characters vindicated was to encourage the use "game vindicator". Safe always comes first before gaming and I think this really is a good way of making and promoting amonng the audience to make it better
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Old 11-01-2006, 04:25 PM   #17
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (ryuishero @ Nov. 01 2006,17:17)]I think making updates based on these vindicated character is a very good technique. I think basically getting these characters vindicated was to encourage the use "game vindicator". Safe always comes first before gaming and I think this really is a good way of making and promoting amonng the audience to make it better
that is a good point,it's true that it does encourage us to use vindication and that these "powered" up characters are the reward in a sense.

It's unfortunate we can't all run it or have it built into the browser or something (so that it would basically eliminate cheating all togetehr) but i've heard that it can't be done because some users would be unable to play the game at all,any info on that guys?
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Old 11-02-2006, 05:38 AM   #18
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

hey i aint new member i played this game for 5 years now i just wanted to say that if there is gonna be a vindicated ken put rage for it so that normal player can use it
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Old 11-02-2006, 07:19 AM   #19
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

vindicated characters should come out all at once so people dont spoil a character i thinktymapp should wait like half a year then release all the vindicated characters
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Old 11-02-2006, 09:01 AM   #20
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (~MK~stewie @ Nov. 02 2006,08:19)]vindicated characters should come out all at once so people dont spoil a character i thinktymapp should wait like half a year then release all the vindicated characters
thats not aactually a bad idea,i mean doing them in groups will allow tmyapp and his testers to determine a power balance of sorts within the group before releasing them all together.

Plus there'd be plenty of time to adjust the power of moves and discover any bugs etc before rlreasing.

I personally don't mind waiting and i think others might be willing to wait abit longer if it's going to benefit the game as a whole.
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:12 AM   #21
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Like every system that brings change... there's always gonna be some adjusting to be done. And to a certain point, we've had long discussions about this (a la TMyApp, moi, Nferno, mods yadda yadda ya)

... but as someone rightfully pointed out... the main reason behind the vindicator system was because you were the ones bitching about cheating and the likes. So in order to curb this, we came up with a system that would not only eradicate any possibility of suspected cheating, but would also reward those who played "cheat free"

And hence.. the vindicator system.

The main point we should take here and not loose focus on is the fact that all this is new... and just like the Raging Demon... sooner or later, people would get used to all the moves... and before you know it there'd be less bitching.

Anyone who wants to "get rid" or lock away the GV should probably start looking for another "play in browser" shockwave, multiplayer game... cause the GV isn't going anywhere.

Another thing you should remember is that this game is still evolving. Sooner or later a bar would be placed in the sense that if youwant to play a certain style, with "stock" characters in ... oh I don't know *cough*mod tournaments*cough* ... then that'll be allowed

At that point, shiny characters or doomsday moves wouldn't determine who wins the game. So believe me, there really isn't anything worry about. Besides... you should see how many "more" players play the game once the characters become vindicated.. so if you think about it... people who complain are less than 1% of those who like the changes and the cool moves.
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:18 AM   #22
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

I think (as i've said it before in other topic) that TMyApp created this new upgrade in order to give rookies/new comers/noobs how you call them a chance and "slow" us down a bit. I agree VIP's now have new powers which normal users don't got yet or they wont have as normal users? And maybe VIP's, good VIP players got an advantage... that is a question only he knows the answer to.
I can mention now that Akuma has a slight bit of advantage over ryu and even other characters.
I can top the characters in the orders they are now, in my view, with their current aptitudes level.
Here is the current listing the way I see it:
Akuma, Ryu, Wolverine, Spiderman, Cyclops, Ken, Juggernaut, Robby aka Sentinel, Sakura and last Chun Li (some notes here: Chun Li still has a bit of advantage over wolverine, but not like before-appliable for good Chun Li users though).
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Old 11-02-2006, 12:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (blanka09 @ Nov. 02 2006,11:12)]Like every system that brings change... there's always gonna be some adjusting to be done. And to a certain point, we've had long discussions about this (a la TMyApp, moi, Nferno, mods yadda yadda ya)

... but as someone rightfully pointed out... the main reason behind the vindicator system was because you were the ones bitching about cheating and the likes. So in order to curb this, we came up with a system that would not only eradicate any possibility of suspected cheating, but would also reward those who played "cheat free"

And hence.. the vindicator system.

The main point we should take here and not loose focus on is the fact that all this is new... and just like the Raging Demon... sooner or later, people would get used to all the moves... and before you know it there'd be less bitching.

Anyone who wants to "get rid" or lock away the GV should probably start looking for another "play in browser" shockwave, multiplayer game... cause the GV isn't going anywhere.

Another thing you should remember is that this game is still evolving. Sooner or later a bar would be placed in the sense that if youwant to play a certain style, with "stock" characters in ... oh I don't know *cough*mod tournaments*cough* ... then that'll be allowed

At that point, shiny characters or doomsday moves wouldn't determine who wins the game. So believe me, there really isn't anything worry about. Besides... you should see how many "more" players play the game once the characters become vindicated.. so if you think about it... people who complain are less than 1% of those who like the changes and the cool moves.
Oh don't worry i'm not saying GV should be scrapped (hopefully no one feels that way) it certainly stops the cheats,rewards those who do use it and in that respect it's flawless.

This is mainly aimed at a mod/knowledgeable person,but is there any reason something like the security precautions etc that the GV users can't be added into the browser/downloadable version of this game without it stopping various people from playing?.


As far as i know the GV's only problem in terms of installation is the fact some children may not have permission to download it and install it,however if it was built into the browser(or something like the GV with similar precautions built into it) then there'd be no problems in that respect.

^ i don't know all the details on it though so i'm proberly asking about something that can't be done but would like to know anyway.It just seems odd that i've played games with security precautions like punk buster(i know it's not the best out there but it stops some of them) that are built into the game itself and was wondering if it could be applied here.
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

Every update ever sense the game has started TMyApp made certian characters power houses when they first hit public... ....

Sentinel(One hit sent force)
ChunLI(come on who can't forget when she first joined)
ect...

Look.. *

You always have the option of not turning your vindicator on..however you can't enter every server...

In time the characters will be tweaked an weakened....

Hell I still remeber the sakura update...she was a serious powerhouse....

but after her tweaking.....her roar...became....a howl..

Why is it steady intelligent users that make the same rational posts....

An the same ass clowns...making a fool of themselves...or building some sorta ...anti-group...or ignorant rebellion......(no offense)

Whatever the problem is...it'll be fixed in time....it always has been......but please keep the posts respectfull....



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Old 11-02-2006, 07:27 PM   #25
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Default Re: Vindicated characters discussion

SFO characters not completely balanced ?? well... of course... what else is new ??

.... despite what has been mentioned here, this thread (more or less) is free of bitching ... and does ask some good questions ... which, either myself or a vet should be able to answer easily (but of course have not, so, here i am … making a super-long post)

from my experience, this is how characters are picked at SFO:

1: most unbalanced char which currently has the cheapest move possible

2: if such char does not exist ?? pick: Ryu

... if you go back to origins of SFO/XvsSF ... you will see this pattern time and time again ... examples: we first had only Ryu ... then Logan was added ... was Logan used ?? hell yes... by EVERYONE !! .. reason ?? ... he was unbalanced ... and his regular Berserker Barrage took away as much health as a hyper move

what happened after that ?? well... Logan was patched ... he became more "fair" .... and when that happened, no one cared for Logan... and went back to playing with Ryu

... need more examples ?? Scott, Sakura, Bison, Juggernaut ... the list goes on ... each character was first "too powerful" .. thus, was used/abused by everyone ... and the second more balance was given to them ... everyone went back to their favorite Shoto's

so what does this tell us ?? ... well ... that Shoto's will forever dominate the world of SFO ... there are just no ways around it ... i can't stop it, because i can't change of how the SFO users see and play the game ...

so then you are asking ... "why can't we have perfect balance in the game ??" .. answer ?? it is simply impossible

... look at any VS. game made by Capcom ... they all have infinite combo's .. and super-cheap characters ... now think back that those original games had multi-million dollar budgets ... and that SFO is a private/free project ... and you'll see of how much harder it is to create a "perfect game" with such restrictions

... why did Vindicated Akuma have bugs when he was first released on the 28th ?? simple ... there was little to no time to test him ... why ?? because 1-2 weeks before the release ... we had nothing but server problems ... which prevented me from making a "beta build" of 1.6a to be tested by the Mods/Admins in time (other than a few days before the deadline) ... result ?? i was forced to work on the game hours before the release ... Akuma was unleashed ... he had/has problems ... a game patch was made .. it was not good enough ... and now a new game patch will be once again released in the next 24-48 hours

let's now look at the other side of the scenario ... the DWX release of Juggernaut ... unlike Vindicated Akuma (and so many other characters) ... the entire DWX update was done ahead of time ... we are talking 2 weeks before the deadline ... ALL was ready .. and all was tested ... both myself and the Mods/Admins sat down ... tested the release for HOURS on end... set back.. and said "there... it's done.. and it's prefect !!! ... first release that is truly bug free !!!"

... then DWX went live ... hours later ... HUGE bugs were found ...

why ?? because this is how things work in reality ... 5-10 people can test the game for weeks on end ... and think they found all of the problems in it... but when 200,000 people download and play the final version in a single day... they will play the game in ways that us 5 could never imagine ... giving the result of "instantly visible problems" (which everyone hates)

in comparison ... giant developers spend millions of dollars ... and have teams of HUNDREDS of beta testers ... working around the clock (for $12/hour ... or something equally pathetic) testing and debugging the game ... and as weeks and months roll on ... on top of all that … places like GameSpot and GameSpy recruit THOUSANDS of free players/beta-testers online (who get paid $0/hour for their super hard work .. which makes the game what it is... at which point the multi-trillion dollar corporation then forces them to STILL buy the game ... which that basically help to create ?? … *sigh* ) ... and the final result ?? ... with all that money ... all those people ... all those countless hours ?? ... a day after the big-budget game goes live ... BUGS are found ... big bugs... huge bugs... some that prevent people from playing the game ...

... did that give you a more clear picture ?? i hope so...

now... back to us: we have no budget ... and we have no "team" ... and if someone thinks that this should be changed ?? then that "someone" has better start his/her own game ... to set an example of how things should be "done" .. (hint: don't hold your breath ... 5 years and counting ... not a single person has created even a reasonable copy of SFO ... and if you ask me... i don't think they ever will ) ... but at the end of the day ... this "unfortunate" reality is what SFO is all about ... (then again, "unfortunate" means that "we are nothing like those multi-million development studios” .. but what else is new ?? )

... what’s another way to look at the situation ?? well... if you come on the opening day of the release .. expect 2 things:

1: bugs ... (and lots of em' ?? )

2: ever wanted to be a volunteer "beta tester" ?? because if you show on the release date .. you are one

... you play the game ... you find the bugs ... you get "pissed" ... you post on the forum of the "injustice" and how the game is "broken" .. and "ruined" ... and what happens ?? ... like magic ... days later ... a game patch is released ... and thanks to your bitching (aka: "quality beta-testing ??" ) ... things are much better .. (or at least slightly less worse )

bottom line: will more characters be Vindicated ?? yes ... for many reason ... (one of which is the fact that it encourages people to use the Game Vindicator ... which .. is a good thing)

will Chun Li, Sentinel and/or other "useless characters" be "tweaked" in order to balance them against the "power house" chars like Ryu and Akuma ?? yes ...

will people complain that now Li, Sentinel and/or other "useless characters" are "too powerful" ... and need to be “changed back” … because Ryu no longer stands a chance against the mighty and/or improved Rocket Punch ?? yes ...

will GV be improved to support older computers and/or different versions of windows (such as Vista) thus, allowing even more people to run and enjoy the Vindicator ?? yes ... is there a way to build GV into the web version of the game ?? no ... (it simply cannot be done)

will Akuma be tweaked/improved along with the game "mega jump" problems (and crazy vindicated moves that kill you while you are in air) in the next 24-48 hours ?? yes ... will people still complain ?? ... definite yes

... and so on ... and so forth ...

everything that i've just said should NOT be seen as "news" (unless u'r either new to SFO ... or have never really thought about the topic in question in a logical manner) ... this is it ... the best/worst/greatest/immortal/bitching-filled browser game to ever grace this earth ... and is much as everyone would want to see everything just be "fixed" overnight ... the grim reality is that i am … after all ... just 1 man ... who had little or no sleep this entire week ... working on 1.6c update … which will soon be loved/hated/cursed/praised by many...

... and there you have it
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